I wouldn’t really mind, but besides, it might just be possible to pay in advance.
If this community-distribution model would be chosen I imagine a procedure where unclaimed gateways after a month or so can be returned to TTN HQ in return of the VAT. I don’t think there will be many of those leftover gateways anyway. So the impact will likely be limited while it takes away any remaining risk away from the communities. Might be convincing for communities.
Do you mean you pre-ordered on the webshop or did you pledge for the kickstarter? Those are two separate things. I am talking about Kickstarter, which has a model explicitly design for high risk. They describe the This is not a store, there are risks involved in multiple places, starting here and analyzed more in depth in an independent study published here.
Indeed, I agree they are 2 separate things.
my “Pre-ordered” payment was through the webshop to TTN, and this was before the line “dependant on KS” was added.
If you like, I paid extra to mitigate the risk.
I personally think that those who did take the risk (KS Backers), should pay the extra (up to 50 euros seems fair). In the end we will all be paying the same, but KS backers woudl get a sweetner of a “free” uno.
I think it’s going to be more than that, with VAT, custom duties and handling.
I fully agree, and we owe the TTN team much kudos for actually delivering what they promised. Designing, manufacturing and distributing a hardware product at these volumes for the first time is nothing less than a significant feat to accomplish.
I think the only missteps happened in the planning and communication, which seems to have been neglected. The logistics/VAT issue is something that could have been communicated much earlier, and maybe even a solution could have been found before the gateways actually started shipping. And if not, perhaps the added value of the network and the disruption TTN has caused could have been a better justification for the extra costs. Judging from the typos and the rather bizarre suggestions in Wienkes posts, it looks like the communication about this seems to be done hastily. Maybe the focus of the team has shifted to something else?
Amazon has special arrangements with many of the European national post services. This includes wavering of customs declaration fees, but e.g. also the wavering of signing of tracked deliveries by the addressee and a very lenient reimbursement/redelivery service if your package did not arrive.
FYI package was delivered by DHL (I had selected Amazon’s standard delivery option) and I did have to sign for it.
Pretty much the same here. I could definitely do without the promised extra TTN Uno to lower the cost a little. Most important for me would be the gateway and having TTN continue as an open network. I already have a SodaqOne that is not being heard now so nodes are not my priority 
And yes, I think the ‘free firmware’ is kind of silly. The network relies on people adding gateways in their own offices and houses so that should be made as hassle-free as possible. Otherwise I could have bought an iMST or Laird gateway months ago or forget about LoRaWAN entirely and spend my money and time on other interesting developments. The nice thing about TTN is that it is also interesting to people who are not already fully committed to radio networking, remote sensor applications, etc.
I appreciate the work done by the TTN team on creating the network back-end, and this forum, but for me the reality is that there’s still no gateway within reach so I can’t really ‘enjoy’ TTN myself. And the recent statements make me feel rather more of a burden than a blessing to TTN.
Thanks everybody for providing us with the input. We will sent out a mail shortly about the next steps. With regards to the VAT we offer the possibility to request the VAT back from us as a consumer backer after the delivery you are not able/willing to bare this costs. Business backers can provide their VAT number so we can prove duties don’t have to be paid to the local postal service.
We’ll see, still looking forward to seeing the hardware You need to update the description in the shop and its FAQ page though.
Business backers can provide their VAT number so we can prove duties don’t have to be paid to the local postal service.
From the e-mail:
Q. As a business, why should I provide my VAT number for this?
A. Businesses and companies that incur the VAT on their order are entitled to apply for a refund. A claim has to be filed with the local tax authorities. Fill out the form in the email above and we will arrange an invoice for this.
From your comment, I read that the postal service will not charge any VAT while from the e-mail I read that the VAT will still be charged, but that I can claim it back. Please note that in the latter case, we probably also have to pay a VAT handling / administration fee which most postal services are charging.
Could you let us know which one is the case?
How many gateways have you shipped?
Hopefully, the comments section will say when people get their gateway.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/419277966/the-things-network/comments
Alternatively, the TTN Map would be a way to find out.
Any updates on when the shop orders are shipped would also be welcome.
Charging backers VAT while the Kickstarter page explicitly states that the VAT is included in the pledges is a breach of contract, nothing more, nothing less. It can be the cause of legal action. It has nothing to do with being a Kickstarter campaign, or “building the network together”. Backers have an agreement with TTN that in return for their pledge money they will receive what they pledged for. The fact that TTN unilaterally decided to ship the hardware from China does not matter as the agreement is with TTN. Backers are now so beaten up and desparate after the long waiting time that they will pay any price (see @arjanvanb’s and @robertoostenveld comments) to finally get their hands on the gateway. It is an unethical way to do business. Moreover, the dutch tax collector keeps a sharp eye on campaigns like this these days so TTN can expect to have to pay the full VAT on all hardware.
Loosing extensive money on the hardware that is shipped now and trying to recover it by future sales while alienating the backers does not seem a very wise business strategy to me.
That’s not what I wrote. I appreciate the work that has been done by TTN to make the hardware useful to start with. And that’s why I’m okay with investing even more to support the community. Heck, I even considered not having any hardware shipped at all and have my investment just be a gift.
What do you mean by that? I’d assume the tax office does not care who pays the VAT, as long as it’s being paid.
Wienke says on the FAQ…
“One of the ideas we have is to do a special event during our third day (community day) of The Things Conference and do a get together. And share the entire journey of the KS project (you have only seen 25% of the drama).”
Hmmm. sounds more like "I will not answer difficult questions until a highly profitable conference comes to a close.
Its almost as slippery as pretending that all gateways have been manufactured.
Wienke, where is my email about getting a gateway? I used to get emails aout progress and then a few months back, they stopped being sent. Was that deliberate? - to try and quietly exclude “pre-orders” without telling them?
What part of Joost’s question was not answered, and how’s that related to the conference? To me, the full comment reads like a sound answer:
Joost 2017-11-17
In the august update Wienke mentioned to “Host a big meetup in Amsterdam followed by other cities, where people can come and pick up the products in person.”. Sounded like an awesome idea to receive the devices in an Apple-like happy celebrating environment. Is this still going to happen? The email for confirmation of addresses has been send out, but I would rather swing by to pickup the package. As would many other backers from NL I remember from long ago (see shipping cost discussion).
Wienke Giezeman 2017-11-17
@joost indeed that was the plan. This would only work if we would ship it from The Netherlands. We did that with some UNOs and Nodes to test. But this turned out to be a very inefficient way to do this. The idea was to do an European roadshow. And bring the gateways ourselves.
We still really want to do this. One of the ideas we have is to do a special event during our third day (community day) of The Things Conference and do a get together. And share the entire journey of the KS project (you have only seen 25% of the drama).
(Though I feel “We still really want to do this.” might be erroneously interpreted as referring to picking up the hardware —which I think is not going to happen, if only as that would delay again until February— instead of referring to hosting a meetup.)
Do you know something we don’t? Then please share.
I asked this question
"Its great to hear
“…So the products were all created in one batch…”
but does this apply only for Kickstarter backers?
Or can I expect a lovely email telling me when I will be getting a shiny new gateway 
"
My answer from Wienke was
"This discussion are only about KS orders "
However, Wienke has previously said this in this thread
In post 63
“We will be reaching out to the individual backers and buyers to confirm the order content and verify the correct address. Do keep an eye out for the email in the following weeks.”
In post 73
"There are a two categories
If my gateway has already been made and is waiting to be delivered, I would have received a proper answer to my question and also an email AS PROMISED BY WIENKE ABOVE.
@Wienke - am I getting an email or not?
The email I got November 14th mentions:
1. Confirm your address
On confirming the address and the content of the package with this email, you will receive an acknowledgement with the shipping carrier assigned to your order.
2. Get a tracking code
You will receive a tracking code which you can use for keeping an eye on the delivery.
…
Q. When can we (as backers) expect to receive our gateway?
A. Once you have the tracking ID, you can retrieve the date and the details for your package. We are going to start the first round of shipment from November 20th onwards. We will be communicating and updating the details on the Kickstarter page.
After doing step 1, how long does it take to get a tracking code?
Hi Arjan,
We are in the middle of getting the confirmation from all the backers and buyers. Will be assigning the shipping carrier in the next 2-3 days along with the tracking id. The first batch of gateways will be shipped next week so will keep everyone posted.
Cheers.