Something we can consider. Let me get back on that one.
Will you also make losses on the Kickstarter Unos and Nodes or only on the gateways?
As a project you cannot really separate this. But as a whole backers will get a 50-60% sponsored product.
Why is the loss increasing with number of produced gateways? Normally cost per unit go down as numbers rise. The bare metal of the gateway wonât be 300âŹ, or am i wrong?
So solution could be mass production and make revenue to spend on growth of TTN?
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In 2015 I backed a Dutch project on KickStarter under the assumption that shipping would be from NL. On my pledge I have been charged an extra 50 euro for shipping: a ridiculous amount for shipping in the Netherlands, but I accepted that because of Update 1 and FAQ 3. I do not expect to be charged twice.
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If you make loss on one gateway and you sell 1500 you make 1500 times that loss. Indeed future revenues would come from future sales.
If you see KS as a webshop I would understand your standpoint. Fortunately it is not. It is platform where one can join the risk and gains of getting a project to the market.
I never said that KS is a webshop. I have taken the risk, invested and paid up front, waited two years, organized a local community, got myself a non-TTN (Multitech) gateway, contributed to local workshops and teaching, helped people getting started, borrowed out equipment. And am now waiting for my KickStarter ârewardâ⌠I am frustrated to hear that I have to invest even more.
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Well, kickstarter is like buying stocks of a startup, with the future possible revenue limited to receiving the product. From a ROI point of view itâs not a very smart choice, so therefore itâs done for idealistic reasons. Having said that the communication from TTN I read in e.g. this topic is sometimes somewhat clumsy. For instance the suggestion to provide free firmware upgrades. I expected that the topic would explode after that.
I think I do understand TTNâs situation and I do understand the fact that backers are very unpleasantly surprised. Probably this is partly caused by the fact that the current solution is presented as a business decision. From my point of view, as non-backer (I wasnât involved back then) and non-core team member, it looks like the situation is pretty simply: the money to do it under the original or even the semi-original conditions is simply not there. This means delivery under the agreed conditions simply canât take place and complaining wonât help. Again: this is speculation. But if itâs true TTN should just be very clear about that. Statements like âout our own pocketsâ still suggests there is room somewhere.
If we looking at some other ks examples they would slowly have perished until they would have pulled the plug. TTN didnât which gives them credits, but I do understand that getting a by now relatively expensive product after a long time of waiting doesnât make people very happy.
In the past complaining and trying to avoid the unavoidable already lead to the situation to let ttn pay for the VAT on the smaller devices. In hindsight that was with money that wasnât there, causing the currently awkward situation that the smaller âusersâ were compensated while the ânetwork contributersâ today canât be compensated the same way. So letâs be careful by fixing this without looking to the effects.
Would it be a solution for the to-be gateway owners to reluctantly accept additional costs, and let TTN deduct the same amount per device that was earlier paid for by TTN for the nodes and unoâs? I believe this may feel fair without the costs going too much through the ceiling.
Secondly, some solution that prevents each individual to pay a few tens of euroâs as administration fee to the forwarder would be very welcome. This feels in particular as wasted money.
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donât forget, we are on a journey⌠together, now just look back for a moment and see how far weâve come, together, thanks to the TTN team and all the TTNâers worldwide.
and I am very curious to see what will happen when all those shiny new TTN gateways are connected ⌠soon 
keep up the good work everyone !
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I donât oppose to VAT in general, but still: is it even legally required to value the hardware using the original Kickstarter amounts? Regardless the actual costs for The Things Industries during those 2 years, for me the real value for just the hardware would be much lower today. Could the administrative value over which VAT and administration fees are due be decreased, without making TTN somehow pay for that?
(A significant part of the price we paid might be allocated to the software/network side, for which no VAT might be due?)
Does anyone know if handling fees are related to the value of the package?
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For parcels, the handling fees are unrelated to the value of the package. For each parcel/addressee, the handler needs to fill out a customs declaration form indicating, among other things, the value of the contents. Based on this declaration, the addressee will be charged VAT and in some cases import duties. The handler charges a fixed fee for each declaration. The only way to avoid this is using a group shipment to one addressee, but then this person/organisation would have to advance the VAT value and recuperate it with the final addressee.
The value of the package is determined by the invoice. For the KS I donât think there is any invoice, in contrary to orders placed through the webshop. Here you could indicate a lower value, but afaik legally that wouldnât be entirely correct because it is the same product as the orders placed through the webshop.
Honestly I think the decision to use drop shipment to the backers was just plain wrong. Letting TTN handle the logistics would have been the wiser decision. They can use the B2B value for the customs declaration and recuperate VAT afterwards. Yes, the logistics handling would put a lot of strain on the TTN team and would take longer than drop shipment, but honestly: the hardware is a year late. Another week or two, even three wouldnât have made much difference. I think the backlash now is much more severe.
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hehe⌠same here.
Well, there are lots of KS that never even deliver. I partially understand the frustration of some when finding out some of the things said 2 years ago will not hold today; but on the other hand, when you signed up for this KS -just as with any other- you know thereâs the risk you will never get the product if the project fails. And please donât forget that in this 2 years, you did receive things from the team: an entire open source network stack, a community instance of it, and the support to build a global community. I think thatâs worth significantly more than EUR 50 or whatever you end up paying on taxes for this delivery.
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I recently ordered a product ($100+) on Amazon.com. An international order that was shipped from the US to the Netherlands. Amazon pre-charged me the Dutch VAT, which I paid directly to Amazon.
This way there were no delays at Customs and more important the âhandling feeâ of âŹ13,- that usually has to be paid to the local parcel delivery company was NOT charged because local VAT was already paid to Amazon directly.
I donât know the ins and outs and the requirements for such a construction but it could possibly prevent the handling fees having to be paid for each individual shipment.
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Iâd love to wire the VAT that needs to be paid to TTN, to avoid the extra fees. But thatâs not an easy administration for TTN either Iâm afraid.
Might be a single form and a single invoice per country, who knows. In particular since I believe you could cluster deliveries per target country. At least many gateways will go to the Netherlands and probably a few other countries will receive a considerable batch too. The 80/20 rule would probably apply.
And personally I think in most cases shipping to the local communities will make more sense. This 1) limits the administration fee, 2) does not overload TTN HQ with thousands of gateways, since the number per community will probably be doable, and 3) when promoting a personal pick up it may bring people in contact with their local community if they did not join yet.
True, but the VAT must still be collected from the individual backers⌠An option to combine shipments might be great indeed.
Who in the community will be prepaying the tax before collecting it from the backers when they collect the gateway?
Thatâs a good idea, I donât know how much work that would mean for TTN Team to arrange it. In Switzerland, we could probably do it very easily, since we have a legal entity that represents the local community and can take care of these things.
âwhen you signed up for this KS -just as with any other- you know thereâs the risk you will never get the product if the project fails.â
Interesting one this -
When I âpre-orderedâ, I paid a premuim of 50 euros, paid the VAT (delivery) and submitted payment to TTN. There was nothing in the order process that said there would be risk if the project fails.
If TTN cannot fulfill their promise to give KS backers their Gateway, then that is no defence on my contract to purchase. I will be expecting a refund if the gateway is not supplied and I do not expect to pay more because of a mistake on TTNâs part.
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