Hi all.
I was wondering if there is any LoRa product/gateway that can be used in a remote area without internet/cellular coverage, e.g. with using satellite communication as a backhaul?
Also, can we use the LoRa gateways or LoRa nodes as a repeater to extend the coverage and use them as a Mech network. So, we can limit the number of the gateway connected to the internet?
Thanks.
Sounds like an interesting concept.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this is already being considered by a number of companies, however this is likely to be only for commercial use due to the costs involved.
Thanks
Andrew
Repeaters are hard to construct, due to the duty cycle rules. But if your area allows high duty cycles or LBT, or if your nodes transmit very infrequently, it should be possible.
Sigfox has three of their gateways (base stations) connected by satellite in Zimbabwe (to monitor and protect rhinos). If it can be done with Sigfox it should be possible with LoRaWAN as well, I don’t think the backhaul requirements are much different.
Something you might need to consider: for OTAA (or any downlink), the LoRaWAN backend server (TTN) sends downlink instructions to a gateway, possibly just in time for that gateway to transmit the downlink at the required time. (Either receive window RX1 or RX2.) This might be troublesome given the large latency when using a satellite connection.
See Gateway Latency.
I agree with @arjanvanb. I have worked with satellite comms for many years - if you use a geo-stationary satellite then the round-trip latency is likely to cause downlink traffic to miss the RX1 receive window and possibly miss the RX2 window. Connecting to a public Internet service over geo-satellite normally gives end-to-end round-trip latency of about 700ms to 900ms. There are some oddball attempts at solutions like Facebook and Google balloons but… real help is on its way… Elon Musk’s SpaceX and OneWeb are both working on massive Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellite constellations that are expected to be similar pricing to cellular and will use small phased array antennae expected to be about 30cm x 15cm. So… keep and eye on this and it will probably become fully viable in 3 or 4 years. If anyone is seriously interested in this topic then I will insert my satellite delay simulator between a gateway and Internet and try some OTAA and downlink tests.
i would be interested in knowing if this is possible using BGAN. I am most familiar with BGAN for some other applications. I have not considered yet if BGAN would be the best satellite terminal to couple with LoRaWAN though. Lowest power consumption is the primary motivation.
Quick question, does anyone know off the top if you stop the internet connection, does the gateway queue the LoRa messages from the nodes and then send them all when the internet connection comes up again or are the messages thrown away?
A gateway requires a continues connection. No data is queued and the back-end is polled frequently. If no polling occurs TTN considers the gateway to be dead and no downlink traffic will be queued for it. Downlink traffic like OTAA responses are required to consider a gateway fully operational.
My humble experiences:
Alternatives:
)Future:
To confirm my understanding of what you said, all uplink messages from remote nodes is discarded by the Gateway if the backend internet network connection to the server is down. Correct?
Thank you for the feedback 
Thank you for the feedback. I wondered about the applicability of the short burst data service.
Yes, that is correct.
A similar solution is already provided by EUTELSAT and deployed by SIGFOX in Europe and USA. It makes use of SmartLNB networks in Ku and Ka bands. You may find more information here: http://news.eutelsat.com/pressreleases/sigfox-adopts-eutelsat-smartlnb-satellite-technology-for-internet-of-things-network-infrastructure-1218222 and http://www.eutelsat.com/en/services/broadcast/direct-to-home/SmartLNB.html
Since this question is being asked on “the things network”… you have inadvertently asked two questions:
Q1: the stated question (LoRa technology combined with Satcom tech - possible?)
Q2: (implied) as can be addressed with MOST gateways while using “the things network” protocols in the back end.
Ans 1: CAN it be done? Sure…
But it will likely require a gateway with a bit more smarts. Some will simply state this no longer qualifies as a “gateway”.
…to-may-to / toe-ma-toe…
No longer just passing along bi directional communications, meaning: packet forwarding to back end servers…
Would require providing some additional decision making between the LoRa subsystem and the Satcom radio link.
This will also require some assumptions about level of traffic to be handled while providing an appropriate level of buffering.
Regardless of this being made to “work”… You shouldn’t expect it to work with similar response times to gateways that have faster/lower latency connections.
I am already doing this (with custom in-house single board design combining all the radios and processing power/memory, etc…).
A solution that can make sense in very remote locations… typically with very modest traffic levels.
Ans 2: No … because of delays in communications link (as pointed out by kersing and others)
Of course the specific Satcom being used enters into the question as well (low earth orbit / sync orbit / etc…).
New options in this area could come along any time.
Very interesting topic.
We’re looking into using privately owned satelite internet connections (e.g. SkyDSL reseller / 30 Mbit/s) but reliability in case of a power outage became questionable when we learned that these modems would draw up to 200 Watts, constantly. Without UPS, it wouldn’t be reliable. An alternative for this case would be to use buildings that already have emergency power: e.g. hospitals or data centers. DCs are very interesting because of their long range, redudant fiber connections.
If you live in a part of the world that has well developed cellular coverage, using that is a lower cost (and lower power) alternative to satellite connections. Governments require that at least one cellular network stays online for x amount of hours (24h and 48h being most common) even during a black-out. There are enough cellular towers with diesel generators to keep a skeleton network in the air even longer than that if it ever were to come to that.
Inmarsat is probably the best positioned player being a LoRa Alliance member and Actility partner.
I had a chance to meet them at Pixels Camp in Lisbon last month as they were one of the sponsors and had kit there to demo and test, including a LoRaWAN gateway (but not actually connected over satellite as far as I can tell) https://github.com/InmarsatSmartCity/PixelCamp2017
To be honest their pitch sounded a bit confused to me as far as the technical side was concerned.
You CAN rent a 2kbps 24/7 channel on 1.5Ghz band across enough satellites to cover the world (minus the poles, unlike Iridium) free to do whatever you want for about US$1 Million/year so if you want LoRa connectivity on your private yatch and found some loose currency behind your diamond encrusted couch do get in touch.
Very interesting discussion! So assuming you can configure the Network Server and Gateways to tolerate such high downlink latency, would it work? Or do you also need to customise end points?
Inmarsat/Actility partnership for LoRaWAN over BGAN was indeed in the press, so I am trying to understand what is standard LoRaWAN and what is not!
https://www.inmarsat.com/press-release/inmarsat-actility-deliver-worlds-first-global-lorawan-iot-network-empowering-business-applications/
Thanks!