Has mass production started yet?
Not yet, it seems, but getting closer⌠hopefully.
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Hello Everyone
This week we received the final samples of The Things Gateway from the factory in China. We are doing the final checks with regards to the firmware and performance at the moment. Once this is finished, we will start with the mass production, which would take around 10-14 days. Amidst all of this, the shipment preparations are also in full swing. We will be reaching out to the individual backers and buyers to confirm the order content and verify the correct address. Do keep an eye out for the email in the following weeks.
Hello Everyone
Great news! We have received the first production run samples of the gateways from our factory in Shenzhen. And we did elaborate functional and durance testing.
We are happy to tell you they all passed our tests!
It means, that we have given a go ahead to the mass production of the gateways just a few hours ago. Concrete timelines on the distribution and shipping will be communicated shortly.
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/419277966/the-things-network/posts/2036596
Hi Backers
We are extremely happy to announce that the production of the gateways is now completed and we are ready to start with the distribution.
The journey till now has been a rollercoaster. You can imagine how happy the team is here. The setbacks we had to overcome required a great amount of efforts and investments from us and our partners. But we are here now! One step away from getting the products to your doorstep. A very important milestone in creating an open global Internet of Things data network, together!
Next steps!
From this week onwards, we will be reaching out to individual backers to confirm their address and the content of the package. Please ensure that you acknowledge the email so we have all the correct details.
We will assign a shipping carrier for your order and along with that a tracking id will be provided to you through which your package can be tracked.
Do note that the products are going to be shipped from Hong Kong so delivery times may vary according to your location.
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First of all, I know this may not be the best place to raise my concern, but I just hope that the post will be read also by those people who are involved in the delivery of the products. Delivering (shipping) from Hong Kong should be alright, as long as it is agreed with the shipping carrier that the products have to be delivered to the buyers at parity DDP according to Incoterms 2010. To put it in plain English: the backers and buyers (us) wonât have to pay customs, duties, VAT, handling fee, etc., when receiving the gateways (because these costs have to be paid by the seller of the gateways, who already invoiced us long ago).
I would welcome a note from Wienke that this is handled as well and we shouldnât worry about it.
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I donât think thatâs possible unless TTN establishes as a company in all destination countries, a daunting task for sure.
So prepare yourself for a customs + VAT bill.
Yes, agree with @jmarcelino, it never crossed my mind that I would not have to pay customs for the package.
Having said that the TTN Kickstarter did have this on the FAQ, although the language is a bit confusing:
âDo I have to add 21% VAT inside the EU?
No actually. We have added that inside our worldwide flat shipping fee. We made the decision to compensate the difference (high shipping costs outside the EU but no VAT vs lower shipping costs inside the EU but with VAT) into one flat fee shipping cost.â
Which suggests VAT would be covered - but also suggests shipping would be done from inside the EU.
I just hope it doesnât end up being cheaper - and quicker - to order it from FarnellâŚ
Hello,
Let me clarify it a little bit. As far as I know, there are backers and buyers who are eligible to get gateways. I am not aware of the backersâ tax situation but I more or less know what is the tax situation of the buyers. I am a buyer, because I have pre-ordered the gateway through https://shop.thethingsnetwork.com/. I am situated within the European Union and I transferred the price (including shipping) to a Dutch bank account owned by a Dutch company (The Things Products Bv.). This means that I have concluded a commercial deal within the European Union with a Dutch company.
The seller (The Things Products Bv.) - if it had a VAT registration anywhere in the EU at that time, which they had in the Netherlands - was supposed to charge VAT depending on the VAT position of the buyer (me). If the buyer was a private person or a commercial entity without VAT registration anywhere in the EU AND was situated within the EU, VAT should have been charged to the buyer at the time of the pre-order. If the buyer had a VAT registration (anywhere within the EU), the VAT of the pre-order was supposed to be not charged to the buyer (this doesnât mean that the buyer didnât pay VAT on the product, because it will be charged by itself to itself on its own VAT declaration). As a third case, when the buyer is outside the EU (in a so called 3rd country), VAT should have been not charged.
To my best knowledge, https://shop.thethingsnetwork.com/ works and worked according to the previously said manner, that is it charged VAT depending on the tax (VAT) situation of the buyer. And this means to me that all duties, taxes, VAT, fees, shipping, etc. should be handled by The Things Products Bv. because I already paid all these to them. All what is left is that they should fulfill their obligation of delivering the gateways.
Sorry for the long post.
Just a stupid question because itâs not mentioned anywhere, does the batch of GW will also be shipped to user who just pre ordered on the shop (more than one year ago) without kickstarter campaign or we need to wait a 2nd production run ?
About VAT, yes I bought from EU company to EU company, so I didnât pay VAT on order but even if I pay VAT on delivery I would remove it from my financial so itâs not really a problem for me, except duties taxes that are random and always asked by DHL, UPS or Fedex, these companies always tax us without any reason, and they are unable to give you an invoice on delivery, itâs just amazing, they applies VAT has they want. One time I had to pay 20⏠VAT for 40⏠invoiced, I told them that 20% VAT of 40⏠is not 20âŹ, answer was âcoming from china, we know they lie on invoice !!!â Amazing not ?
So if delivery is done by postal service, I think you have a chance to not pay anything, if DHL,FEDEX or UPS and supplier didnât done DDP, sure youâll be taxed depending on TTN invoice price on the packet.
I guess itâs time @wienkegiezeman responds to this issue to prevent furter discussion, uncertainty and speculation. 
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We had lots of conversations about this internally. It all comes down to that the VAT has to be paid in any way.
There are a two categories.
- Kickstarter backers - the pledge did not pay VAT and have to pay VAT on receiving the products
- Preorder pledge through website - did pay VAT, were exempted from VAT and do not have to pay VAT when they receive the products. Or did not pay VAT because they were non EU orders.
In the case of the Kickstarter backers we have to charge VAT upon delivery of the service. The only way we can do this is by making the backers pay upon arrival of the package. Business can get this back this if the use it for their businesses purposes. This is quiet a usual approach for Kickstarter projects.
We recognise this could be a surprise for the recipients so we will sent out mails later this week to elaborate on this. And manage expectations as much as possible. Good to see the concerns here as it helps us to explain better in our communication.
With regards to the availability of the products through retail channels. We are doing everything we can to make sure the first backers get their products the first. Some of the channels have ordered a significant amount of stock very early already. The reason we could keep the cost low and make this whole project is because of the extra scale this provided. So the products were all created in one batch. This economies of scale has worked in our all advantage. To give perspective, the money collected in pledges has only been used for our cash out costs which was still not enough. We estimate we had to make double the investment to get to this point. Pulling on the brake now to make 100% sure the products are with the backers first only because of the principle would hurt us unnecessary. In the end not beneficial for anybody. Hope everybody understands we not just another hardware company. We do this with a common goal in mind.
Hope this clarifies the concerns and let me know if this covers it and is enough to manage the expectations on what will happen the next few weeks.
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How about FAQ nr. 3 at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/419277966/the-things-network/faqs
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Good point. As stated above by @jmarcelino that was under the assumption we would ship from NL. Because of the scale we are not able to. With the knowledge we have now we should not have made that statement. We were wrong to do so.
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Not nice, that would add another âŹ70 for me. How did you handle this with the first shipments of the The Things UNO and The Things Node?
As the pledge includes hardware I meanwhile donât even care for, can we change the pledge to lower the price for the VAT calculations? Iâd even consider not receiving the goods at all and just consider the amount I paid a gift for the development and operations of the network, which I still appreciate a lot.
That could be a consideration which is up to you. We shipped the UNOs and Nodes first to NL and we took on the VAT for that as a courtesy.
Would you see another solution for this problem? If more community members go this way it is not in line with our common goal.
One more questions regarding the shipping, at some point, it was said that due to the (relatively high) cost of the unified shipping fee, you would add an UNO to the shipment of TTN Gateways. Does that still hold?
@wienkegiezeman This is a very unpleasant surprise after more than a year of waiting. It is very likely that this will affect the credibility of the organisation and itâs organisers. Also it a a blow in the face of all those who have supported TTN so long. This is not what they have deserved. If the âcommon goalâ is of importance a reconsideration is not an option.
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But the statement about VAT is still there and it was there when you have got the pledges. Backers have made their decision knowing that VAT wonât have to be paid by them. Donât you think that charging VAT now (despite promising not to do so) is a substantial change in the rules of the game?
Donât you think this action put these backers in an advantage position that you are not willing to share with those who pledged for gateways? Gateways are the real heart of the network, backers that paid for gateways are the real supporters of the âcommon goalâ you mentioned.
Please donât misunderstand me, I am not against the project. I just suggest you to fulfill your promises to the backers who where very tolerant and patient after a delay of more than a year. And that includes taking the cost of the VAT, because you have promised to do so.
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